My take on this might be clear to you, if it’s not: I am building the most complete WordPress SEO plugin out there and I recently wrote a post on the topic. There’s certainly parts of this, like proper heading structures and clean HTML that are task of the theme, but titles and descriptions are content, not design, and should thus be handled by plugins. Says enough about my opinion, right?
<update:> The Thesis team and myself have apparently miscommunicated quite effectively. Derek Halpern reached out (as you can partly see in the comments) and they’ve agreed to make sure their theme plays nice with my, and other, SEO plugins. The idea is to give the user the choice, which is what I proposed below as well in my perhaps slightly harsh words :) </update>
What I wanted to share with you today is how different theme authors treat this topic. Brian Gardner and Nathan Rice of StudioPress have been actively working on SEO Data Transporter, allowing people to move data back and forth, I’ve sent them patches, and Brian has been very kind about that:
@yoast Not sure if you saw, but @nathanrice updated SEO Data Transporter. Thanks for working with him on that.
— Brian Gardner (@bgardner) December 2, 2010
Genesis also disables their own SEO functionality when my, or any other SEO plugin, is active: it’s their users choice, not theirs. The guys of the HeadWay theme have been working with me to make sure my plugin also works well with their theme, even doing an update to their framework to make titles work recently.
Compare that to another theme author, replying to a user who wanted his theme to do the same:
@yoast @richstaats It’ll be a cold day in hell before I agree to the idea that anything other than the theme should handle SEO.
— pearsonified (@pearsonified) December 7, 2010
I’ll wait for hell to freeze over, or for that theme to become irrelevant. You know, when you’re Steve Jobs, you get to be that arrogant about your customers wishes, and even he had to cave in regarding apps on the iPhone. Obviously, this author is nowhere near Steve Jobs. You see, open source is about choices. Choices for users, not for product developers. But I guess I should not expect him to get that, as this author has a history of not understanding open source.
I totally agree with you on this Joost.
However on a side note with regards to your plugin do you think there should be an option NOT to link to Yoast.com in the generated sitemap.xml file (simple checkbox would do) as I am not sure having that link (and the one to sitemaps.org) with no rel=”nofollow” via your xsl file is in keeping with your other views on such matters?
They actually don’t get spidered, so I thought it would be ok :) but if people don’t want that link obviously I can remove it, but I haven’t seen anyone complain about the same link in the XML Sitemap Generator plugin :)
I wasn’t sure if they got indexed / carry any sort of weight etc but I trust your judgement 100% so don’t worry.
WordPress plugins are definitely where any automated modifications to the site content need to be made in my opinion. I refuse to use themes that take over those aspects of SEO. In fact, I hate themes in general that have theme dashboards. They’re okay I guess for the average blogger, but I find them to be an unnecessary hindrance, especially when you can’t turn them off.
That being said, I still do a LOT of SEO on WordPress that could never (at least with the way it works now) be built into a plugin without it becoming way too complex.
While you’re comfortable with upgrading your software separately, the bulk of people out there are scared because they think changing their software may break their website.
That being said, it’s smart to rely on one piece of software for everything because it makes things much easier and less scary. How does it make it easier? It’s easier to maintain one piece of software instead of several pieces of software.
Now you may say “it’s easy to ugprade themes and plugins.” Unfortunately, you, and people like you, are probably less than 5% of the WordPress community. Most people get anxiety when it comes to dealing with their software and that’s why you see most websites using ancient WordPress installations.
For the record, Headway also disables our SEO functionality when another SEO plugin, is active.
I’ve got your SEO plugin enabled on a site I’m building that uses Thesis and my-oh-my, it really is a pain in the arse after dealing with Genesis.
You’d think developers would want to give their users options, but apparently some people just don’t get it.
Giving people options is great. However, when you’re running a website, you’re probably better off focusing on marketing and writing content instead of fighting with plugins. When you use Thesis, you gain access to key functionality needed to SEO your website. Yoast’s plugin adds some other great functionality, but when you give people too many options, they end up doing nothing. Thesis keeps it simple for the everyman.
Derek, when I use Genesis, I get their great SEO options too, but then, when I want to use a plugin, like All-In-One, or Yoast’s plugin, the Genesis SEO options dissapear.
That’s smart, unobtrusive design.
As far as keeping things simple for the everyman, I wouldn’t call Thesis a particularly simple theme, as it takes a fair amount of css and php savvy to get it to look much different to the default install. Combine that with the sheer amount of options presented to users when they want to write a post…
You are talking about complex design functionality. I think people seemingly forget, that just a few years ago, if you wanted a website that had 2 columns, you had to search out a theme and install it. Then, if you wanted a website that had 3 columns, you had to search out a theme, and install that too.
Now, with theme frameworks, people should be AMAZED that they can have everything stay the same and just switch around some design options… without having to find new themes… without having to add in plugin functionality… without having to add in their advertisements.
It’s easy to look at where we are currently, and say we haven’t came far enough. However, if you look at where we were, it’s quite amazing that you can change your layouts without actually changing your theme.
A few years ago was a few years ago. Technology matures at an exceptionally fast rate, and WordPress has improved in leaps and bounds in that time. Unfortunately, Thesis is now playing catch-up to other frameworks that stay current.
Thesis has also improved by leaps and bounds in the past few years. You think Thesis is playing catch-up, when that’s not the case. Thesis gives people all the options they currently need to run a website. You want more options, and we’ll continue to add more options, but your opinion isn’t the opinion of the 15 million WordPress users. You’re looking at the framework people, but there are still millions of WordPress users that don’t even know frameworks exist.
Could people stop advertising Thesis all over
the place please. I mean it’s not as it where
better than even twenty ten anymore. The thesis
guys just have great marketing and thing people
are gonna enjoy modifing stuff via external function
when it’s actually easier to modify the theme files
straight up. Some of you must be payed to go out and
troll every topic on anything WordPress.
I agree with what Benjamin said.
Thesis not better than 2010? Lol. That displays a fundamental lack of knowledge. Everything is better than 2010.
I think Yoast.com could make available an Idiott/Dummie ebook for the usage of the plugin. The instructions could stretch from the absolute newbie to the the higher “echelons” (if there are such?). As Joost seems to have a bad case of “writers itch”, also I think it would be possible to charge a few $s for the book or have some ads to put some money-glazing on the venture.
Cheers from Tokyo
MarcPolo
I really do not carea about 2010 or about Thesis both are for newbies.
Templates are for further development by definition and never to be take as is.
You, Matt, purposefully misquote me in order to get a sarcastic laugh and convince yourself that you are somehow better than me. You are wrong on both accounts.
Wrong to do what you do and wrong that you are better than me.
What I agree with Benjamin is that there are people here and out there that seem to troll a tad bit too much about specific templates and so forth – it is beyond doubt now that there is an agenda behind it.
It seems to me that building SEO functionality into a theme is essentially embedding a ‘plugin’ into a theme…it just doesn’t seem like good practice.
Why doesn’t it seem like good practice? Do you use a smart phone? Do you like having everything accessible in one device? I know I do. It makes things so much easier. Why rely on several different pieces of software when you can have one piece of software that does it for you?
Indeed, but then why isn’t more SEO included into the main WP ‘framework’ in the fist place – that would be even easier huh?
Indeed. Why buy running shoes if you can still go jogging in boots? Why seek an opinion of a medical specialist of your family doctor spent the same time at school?
Your argument is invalid.
Since I’m the user mentioned, I think I need to make it clear that I was asking the question independently of Thesis. In fact, I mentioned that I was 100% happy with Thesis SEO functionality, and that it was for other themes that I am not as familiar with (which I came in after the fact). When I build sites, I pretty much only use Thesis and Genesis.
That being said, I do see where a user may wish to have options, and 100% control. That is why I asked the original question:
@yoast i was thinking about your take on theme driven SEO. maybe part of your SEO plugin could ask to replace with yours. possible?
@yoast replace framework SEO options for your plugin’s. migrating the info and then removing the theme seo options with yours
Of course, now I am thinking I should have just kept my mouth shut; the last thing I want are a bunch of people who I have a ton of respect for get into another argument. And since it started from my initial tweet, I honestly feel like crap.
Rich
You shouldn’t feel like crap. Joost is acting unprofessionally because he wants Chris to conform to HIS timeline.
I said it a few times here, and I’ll say it again. Chris will gladly incorporate the filters needed to ensure maximum compatibility with Joost’s plugin, but first, he has to focus on finishing the next version of Thesis. When he finishes the next version of Thesis, he’ll work with Joost, assuming Joost doesn’t continue his little tirade of unprofessional personal attacks.
So I am unprofessional? Come on Derek. Let Chris be a real man, come here himself, treat people with respect and he’ll get that in return. Heck I’ll even update the post or delete it if this all turns out to be a “misunderstanding”, but so far: no word from Chris.
Joost, I’m part of the DIYthemes.com company. I told Chris I would come handle this because he needs to focus on releasing Thesis 2.0.
I’m telling you that Chris will add filters into Thesis, specifically for your plugin, that you can use to ensure maximum compatibility.
However, right now, we need to focus on the next version of Thesis. Is that fair?
I’m using Thesis on a site, and until I can afford to buy another framework, I’ll eagerly await this functionality in Thesis.
Its a pity there’s so much bitchiness with this great theme in the WordPress community
“Plugin” is definitely the more flexible and responsible decision.
SEO is a bigger job than can be handled by just the theme. That said, it’s also too big a job for just a plug-in. In the end, plug-ins and themes should both play a role in helping you to put out an SEO-ed website.
The content needs to be laid out in an appropriate, SEO-friendly HTML structure (thank you theme). As you write content, you need to use keywords and topics that interest your users and help drive germane search traffic to your site (thank you author). But your content should also be relatively self-aware and should be able to reference itself, build relations between posts, and highlight the most relevant keywords on your site (thank you persistent plug-ins).
SEO-optimized layouts are the realm of themes. SEO-optimized content is the realm of the blog author. SEO-optimized keywords, meta, sitemaps, etc. is the realm of plug-ins. They all need to work together to build a strong site.
The fact that Genesis will play nice with your SEO plug-in is, IMO, the greatest selling point of your system. Hand’s down. Publishing the details of that (complex?) interaction will make it easier for other frameworks to join in.
Eric, I love how you break this down into three easy steps:
1. HTML
2. Content
3. SEO
However, doesn’t 2 steps sound much easier? Instead of focusing on your website, content, and SEO, you can use a theme framework to handle both your HTML and your SEO and then you can focus mainly on your content, which in the end, is what really matters.
Stop pluging your business you aren’t adding anything to the discussion.
The problem is that “SEO” is too big of a concept to say anything about it one way or another.
So you have to really break it down into what you are actually talking about. Titles? Semantic markup? Meta? There’s too much here to make any blanket statements about “SEO” to be sensible.
A theme should be designed to have good semantic markup and be easily readable by search engines. But then again, some things like sitemaps and possibly metadata in head should be done by plugins.
This is why I reject “SEO” plugins entirely. Because just saying that it does “SEO” doesn’t actually tell me anything. I’d prefer to use 8 small plugins that each do one thing and do it well than to use 1 plugin which tries to do everything.
I get that sentiment totally (and use that same practice myself in many instances) but in some instances (I’m thinking of a many-multi-author site it’s easier to use one plugin and teach your content editors around it than how to use a bunch of independent meta fields, etc. around the post editor.
As you say though, it’s too big of a concept for any easy, one-size-fits-all solution.
Should plugins handle SEO?
The answer isn’t quite so clear, but let’s talk about people for a second.
When you buy a phone, do you want your phone to do everything? Adoption of the iPhone suggests yes.
It’s just plain easier to deal with one gadget instead of carrying around several different gadgets. Wouldn’t you agree?
Theme Frameworks are similar. Instead of updating different plugins and different theme software, you can update one and it handles everything for you.
Or, in other words, if you rather spend your time writing and marketing your blog, you’re better off relying on a theme framework because it’s easier to maintain one piece of software instead of several pieces of software.
I disagree. Regardless of where the SEO options are handled, it’s still up to the blog author to understand whatever system is being used, and then configure the appropriate options. Whether that is a theme framework, plug-in, or whatever, it still requires a similar amount of work.
Now if you’re talking about saving time by only having to stay up-to-date on the theme framework, I still give the edge to the plug-ins. Let’s say Google announces a major change to how they index sites. A plug-in can be fixed to support the change, and the users can update that plug-in from their dashboard in two clicks.
On the other hand, theme frameworks can’t be as nimble. Thesis is relatively easy to update, and other frameworks like Genesis are even easier to update (again, two clicks in the dashboard). But regardless of that, Genesis and Thesis can’t come out with new versions of their themes just because Google made a change that requires changes to the SEO functionality.
If you say they can, I would counter with the fact that Chris can’t work on providing support for Yoast’s SEO plug-in until Thesis 2.0 is finished. That’s a clear example of why most theme frameworks aren’t as nimble as plug-ins that have a more narrow feature scope.
You might be right on the iPhone, but WordPress is not iPhone. Personally, I do not like the idea of embedding plugins in themes, what if it gets broken or incompatible to a current version of WP, and what if the theme developer has stopped supporting the theme.
If I have those two separate keep the theme as a theme only and the plugins where they should be, I think that should compartmentalize any issue.
Also sticking with the iPhone analogy, it would be like saying you can’t install 3rd party apps to handle things like e-mail, or MP3 playback. WRONG! iPhone users have the ability to install 3rd party apps to do those things. They’re included in the App Store and there are no issues with the iPhone’s built-in apps. Sure, Apple tried to block Google Voice, but the government stepped in and now you can even install 3rd party apps to handle telephone calls. So the iPhone is a great analogy to support the idea of letting Thesis users choose Yoast’s plug-in for SEO.
Derek’s phone analogy is WAY off, it doesn’t compute at
all. JB is correct, the iPhone analogy actually proves the opposite
point of Derek. WordPress is the phone (platform), and all the
subsequent apps each have specific jobs. It doesn’t make sense to
expect your SMS to also play tetris, or your wallpaper chooser to
also manage your contacts. Thesis is trying to mash together two
very different functions and goals, SEO versus look/feel. In the
WordPress platform a theme’s job is to render the look/feel of the
markup, layout and content. SEO is an art form of content, not
look/feel. The two only overlap in the possible ordering of content
in the code and semantic markup for good indexing. The WordPress
community has done a wonderful job of creating a core system that
segregates functions logically, and Thesis or any other theme that
tries to mash together two completely different functions as SEO
and look/feel are making content management tasks MORE complicated
for users, rather than less. In the WP platform, extra SEO
functions belong in the hands of a plugin. PS: I believe WP core
should do a lot more for basic SEO than it currently does, but
that’s another topic.
I used to think it had to be done in a theme, but the truth is your plugin does such a good job it actually keeps theme development to what it’s supposed to be about, theming!
Joost, while I love your plugin and really most of the plugins you’ve ever released, I think you’re falling into the same trap that Matt M falls into.
I realize you’re passionate about open source, and I realize you have a grudge against Chris Pearson, but the idea that it’s about user’s choice is a two edged sword.
Yes, users should have a choice; do they want to use your plugin, or a theme’s built in functionality to handle title & description tags. If you’re unwilling to make it work with Thesis, aren’t you essentially doing the same thing that you’re criticizing?
I’m willing to do the work, Chris isn’t… And it is about choice, if people want to use his themes stuff I’m ok with that, but he’s making it very hard for plugin devs like me to allow people the choice.
My grudge is thus that I think he’s not playing by the rules of the community that’s allowing him to make money.
When did Chris ever say that he wouldn’t allow people to have the choice. His tweet only says that he disagrees with you…not that it will be a cold day in hell before he adds that functionality. I think at this point, it may be a cold day in hell before people stop attacking him because he has an opinion and skewing what he says to fit their own agenda.
He did say that, not in that tweet but I asked him to do what Headway and Genesis did a few weeks back, he refused.
Do you have documentation to show that refusal? If so, I’ll happily confront him about it.
Brian,
If you’d left a real email address I might have considered sending that to you :-)
Joost, you just released your plugin and you expect someone to drop what they’re doing and ensure that your plugin plays nice?
Do you think Apple is going to drop what they’re doing to make sure a developer’s APP plays nice with their new version of iOS?
Nope. It’s your job to make sure your app plays nice with Thesis.
Quite honestly, I don’t like how you made this into personal attacks on Chris. All Chris said was that he thinks themes should handle seo, and now you’re calling him arrogant in your article and suggesting that he’s profiteering.
In reality, you just released your plugin, and you want people in the WordPress community to use it. The problem is, you’re resorting to personal attacks. Please act more professional.
P.S. After Chris releases a new version of Thesis, which is our main priority, he will gladly work with you to incorporate filters to ensure maximum compatibility. However, let’s not resort to the same personal attacks because he’s not working on YOUR timeline.
Derek, I’ve known Chris long enough AND given him enough credit by even having him on the podcast me and other things to think I deserve some respect. I’m not asking him to release a change NOW, I’m asking and did ask for help on one of his users issues. He rejected and later ignored that. Should I have posted this? Perhaps not. Should Chris treat me with a bit more respect because I’ve shown him that courtesy? I think so.
Now if Chris were to come here and say he’d make it work but needs a couple months: fine with that, of course. So far though, the only signals he’s given is that he’s unwilling to do anything.
You regularly say flippant comments to Chris on Twitter. You think they’re okay because you add a smiley face to them, but come on.
It’s quite clear that he respects you and your work. However, after the past few weeks, you’ve done yourself no favors.
But lets put that all aside. Let’s get back to the plugin.
When you sent Chris your SEO Plugin, you asked him to disable all Thesis SEO functionality when the plugin is active. That’s convenient for you and your plugin.
However, you two have different ideals. You think the plugin should handle seo (you’re a plugin developer) and Chris thinks the theme framework should handle seo (he’s a framework developer).
Right now, from the user’s perspective, it would make sense that both your plugin and Thesis works with WordPress, and it does. To ensure that the users see the benefit of both your plugin and Thesis, they should also be compatible with each other.
However, since you’re launching your plugin, why can’t your plugin disable the same functionality that Thesis handles when Thesis is active? Maybe it’s because YOU don’t want to play nice within the Thesis community.
But again, back to the plugin. Chris is currently developing the next version of Thesis. After that’s completed, he’ll gladly work with you to add the necessary filters into Thesis to ensure maximum compatibility with your plugins.
Had he answered me that I’d have said what I’ll say to you: give me the docs on how to detect certain functionality and I’ll gladly add it, I’ve added hooks, actions and filters for other themes as well. I’d still want to offer people the choice though.
And yes I tease Chris. Him and I have had a “Twitter-relation” for a long time, and I have been trying to convince Brian and Chris of the merits of the GPL from very early on (we’re talking early ’08 here) I consider it my duty to keep on teasing him with that a bit, but if he dislikes those comments I’ll refrain from them as soon as HE tells me that.
I’m not saying he doesn’t like them. I’m saying, it’s hard to discern where you actually stand, heh.
But again, back to the plugin. I think you and Chris disagree on one key point. He doesn’t think you should modify a framework to accomodate a plugin. A framework needs to be as efficient as possible. So, while he may not want to modify the framework to accomodate the plugin, he is willing to add in filters that your plugin can reference to ensure maximum compatibility with Thesis. I think that’s a fair middle-ground. Don’t you agree?
I see the theme as the layout and graphics – mostly static content.
I would expect dynamic things like per page/post SEO to be a plugin
I agree Derek. A theme should handle layout and graphics. However, a theme framework is a completely different beast. A theme framework makes it so al you have to do is focus on your content and you let the theme framework do everything else. It’s easier for people who don’t want to fight with several pieces of software every time they need to upgrade.
You’re talking about a theme framework, for theming. Theme frameworks should make theme development more accessible, removing the need for programming or design knowledge with options pages. They should however not be used for SEO which is clearly related to content.
Sadly there are theme ( framework ) developers like Chris who intentionally(?) leave out certain default APIs which blocks certain functionalities and plugins, leaving end-users and other plugin developers with the mess.
Is that how you define theme frameworks? Personally, I think theme frameworks should be used to create better websites. This includes everything from SEO, to navigation, to design.
Derek, so you mean you want a WordPress framework to replace WordPress then?
A theme framework should handle the theme, and that’s about it.
That’s just not how I define theme frameworks, that’s how WordPress and the community behind it defines theme frameworks! source
@Luc A theme framework should be a flexible foundation of any WordPress website. What is a foundation of a website? Content, SEO, and Design. The theme framework should handle all three.
@Jacques Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. A theme framework shouldn’t replace WordPress. WordPress is a content management system, or in other words, deals with your content on the backend. A theme framework deals with your content on the front end.
I’m a back-end webdeveloper and I’ve always kept to the MVC idea. Models, Views and Controllers should always be separated.
In my opinion the same thing applies to the front-end. Content, Design and Structure should never mix business. Implying that a theme ( Design ) should take care of content ( Content / SEO ) is just straight nuts if you ask me.
Am I the only one here that isn’t reading too much into the meaning of the response from @pearsonified? Sure, he’s opinionated and we may not agree with his view, but all he tweeted was that he thinks it belongs in the theme. Nowhere has he said that he won’t allow a setting to disable it within the theme. It’s really getting tiring that people in the WordPress community are doing nothing but slinging mud back and forth over little technicalities that are based solely on opinions and interpretations of things. There are 30k+ people who have purchased Thesis. There are likely far more site than that running Thesis. By continually attacking that theme/framework, all you do is make enemies of the people who use and enjoy that theme. It make those people feel like they are being attacked because of their preference. It might be a good idea to lay off that kind of thing and just do good work because as of now, you’re losing credibility because of the attacks.
Brian, you’re right. It’s not really a big deal. The problem is, Joost wants more people to use his plugin, and since Thesis has such a large customer base, it’s in his best interest to make his plugin work with Thesis.
Since he reached out to Chris earlier, and Chris didn’t do what he requested, immediately, he’s resorting to personal attacks and blog posts in an attempt to make Chris move faster.
However, the truth doesn’t change. Chris is working on a new version of Thesis, and that takes precedence right now. When he’s done, Chris will gladly work with Joost to add in the necessary filters needed to ensure maximum compatibility.
I don’t see Joost wanting to fight over 30k possible users
from the Thesis community when WP has been downloaded 25,576,752 times.
25 million downloads means nothing…if they didn’t have to release patches so often, that number wouldn’t be so inflated. That doesn’t mean there are 25 million wp users.
Also, if you think being a jerk to 30k people, many who are very vocal and influential online, is a smart idea, you’re probably not going to get very far with that kind of attitude.
Brian, I’ve approved your comment for now, but from now on I’ll only accept comments from people who leave their real email address.
A decent amount of customers only due to internet marketers pushing the product via an aggressive affiliate program :>.
Will Joost’s plugin provide a better SEO framework…yes. So of course he should want to enable turning off his own frameworks features as soon as possible to look after his users who have paid for thesis.
On a side-note, the BlackBird Twitter MCE button is great – but the RSS feed doesn’t display it as nicely. Wondering if there’s a better option to display it better into RSS.
Ah I’ll look into that, i’m loving the plugin.
As long as your plugin allows Thesis to over-write the settings (sort of the same approach Headway uses) then I don’t see an issue with it. Even if Chris doesn’t provide the same functionality on his end, at least your plugin would be usable by Thesis users.
Granted, I’m not a plugin author so there might be issues that I’m not seeing. Are there technical aspects of the theme that prevent you from allowing any native settings the user chooses to use to remain?
As for him breaking the rules, I think we’re best to avoid going down that road again, as we obviously disagree on that front.
He’s missing or intentionally leaving out some default API calls. Also, his recent updates broke several plugins, including my GA one, to his credit I think that’s fixed now but I get more support email about his theme than about all the others combined. That’s why I get angry, he’s making us plugin developers jump through hoops and leaching off of that. It’s not even the license debate, it’s that he causes me more work.
If you think Chris does that intentionally, you really can’t be saved. He focuses on one thing and one thing only: he builds better software for his customers.
Right now, his head is down working on a new version of Thesis, and as I said below, after the new version of Thesis is released, he will gladly incorporate filters into Thesis to ensure maximum compatibility with your plugin.
Until then, do you really expect people to drop what they’re doing and conform to YOUR timeline? Isn’t that arrogant, too?
Btw, Joost, when I click the reply link it doesn’t seem to be letting me actually reply, it’s creating new comments. Not sure if it’s my browser (FF 3.6.12), your site, a combination of the two. Just thought I’d let you know.
Do you happen to have JavaScript disabled?
@Eric, very well put.
You’re a talented guy Joost, I’m a big fan, but don’t you think it makes sense you get more support email from thesis users becuase of the sheer number of people using it?
I’m all for a discussion about SEO handling by themes vs. plugins, but I really don’t see why it has to turn into a pissing match about who is right or wrong when it comes to open source and the community. Chris builds an excellent theme that in my experience is sufficiently compatable with most plugins I use, is structured wonderfully and performs among the best. Do I always use it? No… because I DO have a choice.
The bottom line is that Chris developed a product and has every right to determine the direction of that product, absent of riducule from the “community”.
Dustin, well put. Thesis is on more than 100,000 websites. Of course you’re going to get more support requests from Thesis users. It’s because everyone uses Thesis.
However, like I said, Chris wants his stuff to be community friendly. This is why he adopted the split GPL license. He’s also willing to work with Joost by adding in special filters into Thesis that Joost’s plugin can reference to ensure maximum compatibility.
The problem is, there was some poor communications, on both Joost and Chris’s part. I think we’re on the same page, now though.
Well Derek, let’s not go further on this discussion here, but let’s just say some of my plugins are on more than 100,000 websites too :)
Funny I was under the impression that Chris adopted the GPL license because he was about to be sued? As I recall Chris and Matt Mullenweg had a debate over who’s dick was bigger and it turned out that Matt’s was.
Chris seems to let his ego get in the way of good business practices (and sometimes common sense) quite regularly. It was in the aforementioned debate that he trumpeted that he was ““arguably one of the top three most important people in the history of WordPress”. (You can even buy it on doggy t-shirt http://www.cafepress.com/IAmWordPress.459244619)
Kitty, I just snorted I laughed so hard at your reply!!
Your argument, paraphrased: people change themes and might not retain all of their SEO settings. Their content is (relatively) timeless, but themes are transient.
I think one problem is that Thesis, Genesis and Headway are not really “themes.” If you’re tired of the design of your site, it is easy as pie to change that and NOT get rid of your framework. WordPress users need to start abandoning the idea that in order to freshen up your design you have to “change themes.” (And they certainly need to stop listening to talking head non-coders who say one framework is better/worse than another. That crap is all about $ and image, not users. I digress.)
I do agree that people should have a choice, but I don’t believe that the average user wants to choose at all; I think they want to be told. I think they want the path of least resistance. Installing one thing, dealing with one set of options is easier than doing it with two. And, with Thesis, Genesis and Headway, users get a level of support that free plugin authors are generally unable to provide.
Hey Matt, keep in mind people make a choice by installing my plugin when they are already using a framework :)
Who wants to be told what to do? Are you kidding me? What people want is information, and here is a link to a great article on competing frameworks.
http://technosailor.aaronbrazell.com/2010/04/07/battle-of-the-titans-premium-theme-framework-smackdown/2/
That was a comment on the “average user.” You may be a developer or an advanced user, in which case you would not fall into that category. It wasn’t an encompassing statement. Every client and user I have ever interacted with has said “you are the expert, tell me what I need to do.” So maybe that statement was anecdotal, but I’m willing to bet the farm that it is a common occurrence. And, it is almost irrefutable that “average users” want the path of least resistance, which I believe is “one thing is easier than two.”
Also, given Aaron Brazell’s bias toward StudioPress (and historical animosity towards Chris Pearson), I don’t find anything he says credible in reference to other themes.
Yoast,
your timing is excellent :)
I just wrote about this over on themesforge yesterday.
http://themesforge.com/24ways/theme-tip-5-wordpress-themes-seo/
In summary, I’m very much with you on this.
Keep up the excellent work!
Ed
Just updated the post, the Thesis team has agreed to work with me on making sure users indeed get the choice to use the SEO functionality of their choice.
Note by Joost: Comment deleted, not for it’s content but for the fact that it was anonymous. I’ll take ANY criticism, literally ANY, but not anonymously. If you’ve got something to say, speak your mind, but be a man (or a woman) and stand up for it.
All this talk about Thesis being a framework… check your definitions : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework
The only framework for WordPress that I know of is Hybrid Core because it is in effect a set of libraries that can be added to ANY theme.
Genesis and other premium themes are “parent themes” which have extra functionality built in.
You can build child themes off of them, but that doesn’t make them a framework.
Anyway, I’d rather have the SEO functionality in a plugin, because it allows more flexibility and less dependency on a given theme.
Yep, Hybrid is the only one.
Essentially, this does not affect the intelligent, only a fight over how to control the large numbers of less experienced users.
Wow!
I’m feeling sad and confused.
As a newbie to the world of WordPress, Themes and Plugins, I like to follow via twitter and blog posts, the leaders in their field on such subjects, to help me in make a choice as what system to use.
But discussions like the one above seem to (in my humble opinion) generate more heat than light.
It saddens me to read personal attacks, on and by people who’s views I respect.
But perhaps it’s my optimistic naivety, to hope that grown-ups would act as such and not behave like my 5 year old nephew :(
Hey Tes, well while we behave like little kids sometimes (I’ll admit to that) it’s because we care and we lack a bit of female “touch” in the community every now and then :)
My wife read this post and just looked at me, for the record, shaking her head ;)
Welcome to the wonderful world of WordPress and open source. This is a tame discussion, too.
yes good update, because as we used at some web that consist AIO and theme with personal seo tweak, they don’t work properly or contain multiple meta or canonical.
I have used both and believe you should have options. Looking back at the Thesis/GPL/Matt Mullenweg clash I am not sure whether this is a bit deeper than plugins v frameworks
Nice job, Help me my improve
This discussion is getting heated because two people have different thinking on a same subject (which is fare).
Personally, I highly appreciate both Chris and Jhoost as WP Community leaders.
Actually, both are targeting different potential users. Chris targets less WP knowledgeable or who don’t want to go in depth by finding and installing plugins.
Jhoost targets more WP knowledgeable people who want precise control and willing to spend more time over SEO tasks.
In that case a framework MUST NOT block the choice of user if he/she want to handle its SEO in a different way.
Generally a rifle is enough to hit something, but sometime you need a Snipper Rifle to have more control.
Glad the matter is resolved, but I do think it’s really strange (won’t use any other words for it, though there are lots of them) that Chris didn’t take the effort to answer in person.
“Too busy” is a real lame excuse, as spoken by a business owner with 7 employees who is also a dad of 3 etc.
When you run a business, it’s smart to focus on what you do best, right? Chris brought me on to handle marketing / pr related issues at DIYthemes.com, so he could focus on development, which directly helps the DIYthemes customers. Heck, in the time I spent answering comments here, Chris revamped the Thesis interface, which is looking great.
When you are adressed personally, it’s best to handle it personally in stead of sending someone to speak for you. Why DOES he react on twitter and not here? And please don’t pull the “time card” again. We all know that’s totally irrelevant.
Having read all of the comments this far down, I have to agree.
@Derek: If you’re the PR person for DIYThemes, then you should be able to recognise when you need to do what you do, and when a correctly worded and levelled personal appearance from Chris would do far more for improving his/DIYThemes/Thesis PR than you saying he’s too busy.
Thesis 2.0 has been being worked on for a period getting on for 18 months or so, so if taking 10 minutes out to make a personal comment is beyond his schedule, then he’s far less efficient than he wants to be.
Hi Joost,
Would you mind if you also contact Carl Ocab of ULTIMATE BLOGGING THEME to make his Premium WP work with your SEO Plugins?
I am using the UBT yet, I used 3 SEO plugins namely; All-in-One SEO, built-in SEO pluging and your WORDPRESS SEO plugin.
I hope can give time to contact him since many of us use the ULTIMATE BLOGGING THEME. Thank you…
- Felix
If you can email me his contact details, or open a thread on the support forums about it, I’ll gladly reach out.
There’s nothing magical about SEO. Following best practices for title tags, meta descriptions, H1,H2…, and permalinks can be accomplished equally well by a plugin or a theme. Giving users a choice however is a good thing…
Every once in a while we want to change the LOOK of our websites, right? Not the content, not the IA, not the search rankings, but just the LOOK. That sometimes (almost all the time) means getting another theme. When I do that, I wan’t my content and meta data to stay the same – 100%.
If on-page SEO functionality cannot be part of WP core, then it should be a plugin. No way in hell should it be a part of a theme, ever.
I agree 100% with this point of view. Also Luc De Brouwer above, separate Content, Design and Structure. And do not put it in core, keep the WordPress core lean, and let people decide which SEO plugin they’re most happy with.
When you use a framework, you don’t need to change your theme to improve or change your web design. That’s the whole point of using a framework.
You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
It is so nice that you (Derek) make the decision for us (the users) to not needing to change the theme-design…
It’s a bit like Big Brother decides for us what’s best, no?
First off – I want to Thank Joost for making some great plugins that help make our website what it is. Also, Thanks to Chris P for providing us with Thesis upon which we built the site.
As a somewhat technical webmaster/handyguy I’m not sure where I fall in this debate. I just want things to work and I dont really care too much if SEO is in a plugin or in a theme. The presentation to the person creating the content and the ease of use is key.
That being said – If/when I have a need to change from Thesis to something else I would be pretty cranky if I lost the SEO stuff I added to each page/post. I know there are tools that allow movement of that data between different schemes.
Perhaps Matt M could settle the debate and provide something in the core of WP for SEO? One commenter Said WP is a content management system. Isn’t meta data associated with content part of the content being managed? If so, shouln’t it be managed in the same way regardless of the theme or plugin? If WP had the SEO stuff the community wants/needs then there would be no need for Joost’s plugin or Chris’ seo stuff. In this world Chris would just theme the output and Joost would write a different plugin or one that enhanced what was in WP.
Anyway – Thanks Joost for all that you do. Thanks Chris P for what you do. Without both of you we wouldnt be where we are at.
The Handyguys
Genesis FTW…=P
I recall listening to one of your podcasts only a few weeks ago featuring Matt Cutts from Google. Matt cleary stated that WordPress is set up so well that if you take some care in your posting that no extra SEO plugins should be necessary. He aslo stated that he doesn’t use anything on his own blog and does quite well in the rankings.
What do you say to this? Can your new plugin surpass the opinions of the man who holds golden key to it all? How can you improve on what Mr. Cutts seems to think is an almost perfect system in itself?
Hey, of course Matt would say that, he works for Google :) WordPress is very good out of the box, but far from perfect.
Yeah agreed. Softwares are helpful in lame work but not where you need to think or take decision. After all, how software would know where to post your stuff for same niche.
Hi Yoast,
I use Headway and when you released WordPress SEO I was over the moon to find it fit in and worked first time, thanks and thank you for the continual work you do in maintaining and updating it.
I was using Headspace but just love the combination and integration of Headway and WordPress SEO.
Ive been using the software and love it, thumbs up, 2 months in and better than expected, cheers guys
Should plummers or electricians drill your teeth?
Plugins is flexible decision..
WordPress SEO Plugin Hi Mate, it would be great if you would do a step by step video on your recommendations for setting up your SEO plugin so we could benefit greatly from it.
Good for you all. I prefer a plugin of function.php hardcode any day. The things i hate about these premium themes is that at some point, the design may need to be changed or the wordpress hardcode itself may not support certain functions due to deprecation and so and so. At least with the more popular SEO plugins, they are kept up to date…
@Derek – Your attitude here as a PR person is disgusting. Even though I have no problems coding my own theme, if I were regular WP users, I would be turned off from buying one of your company’s products. It sounds like you came here to do a bit of PR rather than actually defend plugins vs. themes. Jesus Christ man, WP is a niche community somewhat and you all are making it an all out war of cry babies. Grow up.
Hi Joost, Thank you for your contributions to the SEO community. We use your plugin for the WP sites we create. One thing clients need to realize in regards to an SEO plugin is that optimization is not a magic bullet for poor content.
I dropped a theme cos it took over the SEO plugin (yours, btw). There’s no way I’d let a theme do the major SEO work. It just does not make sense on a system that is synonymous with plug-and-play.
Something not quite related to the topic: you may want to consider moving the “Notify me of followup comments via e-mail” checkbox to somewhere above the “Post your comment” button. It’s kind of out of the line of sight where it’s sitting now.
Hi Yoast,
I am using WordPress default plugin on http://www.differencebetween.co.in/
When i go to an individual post, I don’t get ” – ” after the post title in the title bar.
I think i have set everything properly.
Can you help in this regard?
Where can I go to get some docs for this plug-in, and yes, I am a newbie. Just tryin’ to learn it all.
I think we also have to start with the basis (the theme) and then continue with adding value added plugins to the system. If you integrate your SEO into your theme you will have a lot of work when updating this system. At my consulting job at Componence we always create plugins to integrate more functionality, more-over because it can be re-used that way and updating is a lot easier..
Good article!
For the “average” user online, plugins are a much simpler route to go then most theme modification in regards to SEO. However, for the average user online, who more than likely doesn’t need to know anymore about SEO than what perhaps a Genesis or Thesis platform provides, the subject of SEO can many times be an overwhelming addition to the already information overloaded newbie.
Personally, I would much rather invest time teaching someone how to simply setup their blog, Genesis or Thesis platform preferred, correctly with the available options, first, then move on to plugins; if needed.
Plugins can be very useful, provided they don’t sit there taking up space, doing more harm then good because they weren’t setup correctly in the first place.
Loving your new WordPress SEO plugin. Can’t wait for detailed directions on how to use it though (I’m stil trying to different parts out). One other thought is the training for clients who use your plugin. It’s challenging to get folks to regularly input the info input All in One SEO. They just aren’t getting how critical it is to folks seeing their info. Any suggestions?
Keep up the great work!
Theresa 8-)
Thanks for this plugin. I had almighty problems getting any kind of support for another all in one solution, after paying for support too, that I had to go look for something else. This seem much better and I’ll gladly donate. Thanks again!
Joost – Love the plugin! It works great with WooThemes and Genesis so far. I used to have to do Yoast Breadcrumbs + Google Sitemaps XML + WPSEO and now I can just do one plugin to replace all of those!
Derek – Chris has always been an egomanic, and Thesis lives on hype marketing. It’s a bear to use for most endusers – I have clients come to me basically begging me to save them from it. Coming on here to blast everyone for Chris is just pathetic, and doing so for several responses until you remembered to tell us all who you really were is really just low, man.
I am using a theme to build a website for my mother. The theme has a number of SEO Features built into it by default. How can I determine if the theme will play nice with your plugin? If I use the theme and your plugin at the same time will this create an SEO issue??